How many small, sporty rear-wheel drive coupes are there out there? I know, right, you can count them on your fingers even if you’ve lost a couple in an unfortunate iceskating accident. That’s why I can’t figure out why the Toyota/Subaru 86 twins aren’t more popular. They’re each pretty decent cars for the money, and, with the exception of ultimate horsepower, push pretty much all the right buttons. And yet, no one is beating down dealer doors to get either.
Revelatory cars typically do become wildly popular. When Datsun introduced the 240Z in late 1969 its combination of excellent performance, drop-dead good looks, and reasonable price not only caught the attention of competing sports car builders, but the buying public as well. They lined up for a chance to own one, which led Datsun dealers to jack up the price and make a killing. Supply and demand, folks. A similar thing happened when Mazda first released the MX5.
That didn’t seem to happen with the Scion FRS and Subaru BRZ, twin sons of different mothers and separated not so much by their styling as by handling. Each is a great car in its own light, and they both have received positive reviews from those in the know. And yet, there are no crowds outside of Scion dealers, nor lines down the block at Subaru shops. The cars have been modestly successful in sales – but nothing great. That seems strange because there is nothing else quite like the twins on the market at present – the Hyundai Genesis Coupe and Nissan 370Z generally running with a larger, more expensive crowd. You’d think, seeing as they are what we car nuts usually consider to be automotive nirvana – RWD, sporty engine, good-looking coupe body, excellent handling – that they would be selling in droves, or at least put on a pedestal as the second coming. Why do you think they have not?
Image: SimpleNewz
Hooniverse Asks: Why Isn't The Hachi-Roku More Popular?
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I know my problem with it was the hot/cold/hot/cold/hot/dormant/cold/hot rumor mill behind it. Just like the Camaro, LFA and the future NSX.
All of the good buzz was gone after the 3rd year of teasing us.
Not to mention the fact that the concepts were hybrid-assists (which would have been a huge help considering the torque of the electric system) Then that was dropped and we were told turbos were in the works, which made sense considering the engine source.
So it’s a good car, i fact it’s a great little car, but the promise vs delivery is not what we were shown.
I’d still buy one if I didn’t have three kids to drag around occasionally.-
And there was enough buzz from the anticipation, that the short period of high demand at launch made dealers think they had something special and were gouging on the first couple off the truck. A bad launch can really sink a niche car like this.
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These cars are so close to clicking all the right buttons, but they lack the torque necessary to be truly worthy for purchase. I’m currently in the market for a toy car and the twins aren’t on my radar (even though I’ve driven the Scion aggressively) due to their lack of power. No I’m not going to modify a brand new car.
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Truly, all it needed at launch was a hi-po option. Hell, even a light pressure turbo on the 2.0L boxer to give it 200hp/200tq would have made a world of difference, and given owners the low-price tuning options that come with a factory turbo and some computer software rejiggering.
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The real trouble is that it’s impossible to build a low-volume vehicle to a price point that could make it a high-volume vehicle. It lacks versatility to be an only car, and at $25k-ish, it would have to be an only car for most potential buyers. It’s a very different car competing for a lot of the same buyers as a base Mustang, and it makes the Mustang look like a bargain.
It’s a good car, and I think worth the money, but it’s hard to compete on value with its higher volume competition. -
I’m surprised that Subaru hasn’t released a turbo version yet, and/or AWD, something along the lines of the WRX.
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Auto enthusiasts are all mouth and no trousers.
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So is the FR-S/BRZ/GT86.
I’ve come close to buying one on two separate occasions and in both cases was put off only by the characterless, gutless, unpleasant motor. -
Okay, I’ll bite. Please expand on this; I’m genuinely interested in what you have to say as regards this.
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But of course. THROW OFF THE TYRANNY OF PANTS! DOWN WITH THE TWIN TUBES OF TERROR! (h/t Dearthair, wherever he might be)
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Way ahead of you; posting in only a T-Shirt and underwear.
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Go on….
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Agree there should have been a performance option from day one. Also with proliferation of AWD sporty cars, the cold climate market for these is dead (if you can afford aChallenger, you likely have a 4×4 for winter).
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There are a few big misses that preclude these from being the perfect fun commuter car (for me).
1. Requiring premium gas while netting only “meh” highway mileage is a huge miss (in my opinion). I’d be happy with 200ish horsepower while netting Mid 30s highway MPG on 87 octane.
2. This car doesn’t work (easily) if you have kids or the occational 3rd or 4th passenger. If the back seat was even marginally more roomy I could justify using one as a daily driver. Actual owners may disagree…but I tried a test-fit and there was zero leg room with actual adults in the front seat.There are plenty of 2-door coupes/hatchbacks that work great/fine with a booster seat…this one, not so much.
3. I also think they really missed on price point. The BRZ has a $25.7k list price (FRS is actually $400 higher). You’ll be hard pressed to get out the door for under $30k unless there’s some significant discounting. Neither brand has a reputation for discounting. That’s only $900 less than a 2016 WRX…which is considerably faster and has actual usable back seats. This might be the single biggest problem with the BRZ.
If I were in my 20s, unattached and didn’t have the garage space to maintain a dedicated auto-x car, this would be a viable alternative.-
“That’s only $900 less than a 2016 WRX…which is considerably faster and has actual usable back seats.”
Bingo.
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Perhaps they’re just not that good looking? The Miata and the 240Z and even the VW Beetle all had iconoclastic looks that set them apart from the crowd. The Miata was originally a chick car, bought for graduating daughters and trophy wives, it took a while before it was taken seriously.
Perhaps there aren’t as many enthusiasts as there once were? I know the age of social media has made every sub-clique of every culture seem like a world dominating force, but car nuts might be a dwindling, if vociferous, population. Witness all the articles about how kids don’t want driver’s licenses.
Maybe the information age is doubly to blame, as everyone goes to the internet to find out what they should buy, and the necessary critical mass of adventurous buyers hasn’t developed; everyone’s waiting to see what everyone else says first and it gets short circuited. -
I blame the Journalists. It was they who crowed on about a raw, undiluted driving experience as with the AE86, and how somebody really needs to build something that recaptures the old, simple, rear wheel drive magic. And Lo, they got what they asked for.
But did anybody ask the kids? Does your average gasoline-veined 18-30 year old actually want a tailor-made traditional driving machine straight off-the-peg? Does said kid even appreciate the subtle nuances of vehicle handling vs. grip and outright power? And hey, if they do, are you ever going to coax them out of their $3000 Miatas which have been set up to their exacting specification?
This car, miraculous as it may be, appears to have been designed solely to please journalists, who do everything they can to get their cars for free.
A few years time, second hand, the kids’ll be all over them.-
The same thing happened when Toyota replaced the überboring mid-90s Corolla, always derided for its sedate design, with a googley-eyed car that was much the same, but with something akin to personality:
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/images/large/478/Toyota-Corolla-WRC_1.jpg
The same journalists mobbing Toyota before, would then say that this car was a failure to start with, not satisfying the conservative expectations of its customers etc etc. Not good.
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Well now, here we are. Before it’s launch, I believe I said many times that it’s pretty much an RX8. It’ll do RX8 things like the RX8 did. I think I even said that we’ve seen how this strategy played out before. I was talking out of my ass though, I thought having Toyota behind it instead of Mazda would be enough to keep the sales push up. I guess we’ll see over the next few years. Hopefully it follows the RX8’s used car values too.
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I actually see a lot of them around the SF Bay Area. A surprising number.
While I like the formula, I often waffle on whether or not I wold actually buy one. I think the realistic answer is “probably not”. For one, the styling never impressed me. The constant chatter about power certainly has some validity to it. I’m driving a WRX wagon now and ~225hp seems anemic compared to the LS2 GTO I had previously.
That said, a good car doesn’t need a lot of power to be fun. So I can definitely appreciate it in that sense. 4 seats, RWD, manual, and NA in small, light package… yeah, that’s still what I want in a car. We just need to freshen up the styling and add like 50 more hp. Then my answer would change to “probably”. -
Odd theory: Doesn’t come in topless.
Seriously, taking off the roof is a good way to get people who just want a fun car but aren’t hardcore into the showroom. The Miata sells gangbusters because you can take the roof off. Enthusiasts are a niche market, put people who just want something “sporty” are a huge market.
Also, in North America specifically, Scion branding can’t help, because nobody cares about Scion. Hell, I’ve seen at least one where the owner swapped out all the Scion badges for Toyota ones.-
Yes. The answer is always Miata.
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Agreed. And not even a sunroof available.
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I was to say it wasn’t available in Norway. But yes, it is. From 56000$, which is actually fairly competitive around here.
I’ve only ever seen one, driven by a grey haired dude. So I’ll go for the fact that middle-aged men in their “Porsche crisis” actually can afford a Porsche. Young guys who don’t study and have the means go for old Volvos or BMWs – the others quickly go from being poor students to being fathers, needing the missing seats. -
The “Affordable RWD Sports Coupe” is simply an idea whose time has passed.
1) The public perception that four-door sedans are dowdy is dead and in the grave.
2) Modern child car seats have made a cramped, hard-to-access rear seat as much a liability with little kids as with adults (maybe even more so).
3) Even with traction control, RWD is no longer an acceptable option to a lot of people who deal with snow in the wintertime, especially when AWD cars can be made to handle as well (if not as entertainingly).
4) The roads are much more crowded, and metropolitan sprawl has swallowed up most peoples’ regular routes; there so few occasions when anyone can really use a delightful chassis that it’s hard to make fantastic handling one’s overwhelming purchase priority.
5) In this age of crossovers and heavy traffic, the low-slung seating positions you so you’ll just spend your time on the road staring at other cars’ bumpers at eye level, most of whom have not noticed you’re there.
6) Economy cars handle a lot better than they used to. The cost of components needed to make a car’s handling stand out in today’s market are expensive enough that remarkable handling is not going to be remarkably affordable.-
Seven excellent, accurate, salient points. You can have the rest of the day off.
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I’m not disagreeing with any of your points, but do cars like the Ford Mustang not count as a “affordable RWD Sports Coupe” ? And I wouldn’t say the time has passed for that vehicle.
OK, maybe i’ll remark about point 3…. Why is it no longer an acceptable option? Tires are much better, traction control helps, and the roads have never been cleared quicker (and with heaps of salt, dryer quicker too). There really aren’t many days that you would feel uncomfortable driving a RWD vehicle. at least where i live in Michigan.-
I’m not saying its justified, I am just saying that’s people’s perceptions. I’ve heard from plenty of friends, “I wouldn’t buy a rear wheel drive car, because they don’t go well enough in snow.” (And that’s in KC, where we only average 9 accumulating snowfalls a year.)
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The thing is, with a modicum of car control, RWD works as well or better as FWD in snow and ice. The main culprit are usually the tires.
From my experience, the worst roads in icy conditions are serpentines: Steep roads with heavy turns. I’ve seen people get stuck with FWD where I sailed past sideways in old Volvos. Looking like a douche, but I got up. -
OK, I understand what you mean.
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You’re not wrong, but I would add Citric’s caveat from above. Look no further than the Miata, which continues to sell steadily at the same price point. Or the previous Z4 twins, where the convertible outsold the coupe by an order of magnitude for the two years they were both in production.
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I think the crucial difference there is coupe vs convertible. A two-seat drop-top caters to a whole different customer base.
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I just think they are too expensive. I can get a WRX for the same money, a SI Civic for less, my Speed3 was substantially less. I still might end up buying one, they are really cool cars, but, for the money there are way too many other (superior, my opinion only) options.
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They made a car for us, woohoo!
But we don’t buy toy cars new, we can’t afford to…-
A used car salesman friend told me they are gone off the lot after two weekends, maximum. That’s pretty good in a country with entertaining fringe costs and no population density.
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i was initally interested in one of these as my daily driver – retired, no kids, the wife drives ‘the highway car’. Based on initial reviews, it seemed great. I then actually went and looked at one (Toyota) back when the dealer was still refusing test drives. I found it cramped and confining – at 6ft, 185 lbs, I don’t think of myself as large, but I just wasn’t comfortable.
I don’t need huge horsepower, but the performance didn’t seem overwhelming enough to justify squeezing myself inside every day. For an occassional toy, my old Alfa Spider is more engaging -
For me, it’s simple: Scion.
I don’t want a Scion. I want a Toyota GT-86. I want a Toyota front and rear end. I want what they have in Japan. This is the closest they’ve come in a long time, and they screwed it by giving it to the “no haggle, no discount, no excitement” line of cars. I can’t afford it as it sits, so I get to miss out on yet another potentially great driver’s car from the last 20 years (the S2000 is still a fresh scar on my mind). With it’s narrow focus, you could honestly expect it to run $5k cheaper without hurting the bottom line. -
I have been waiting for this car since 2002. In 2013 i drove one on Norwegian mountain roads and I never felt a need for more power, and this was an automatic car. It was pretty much perfect for narrow and flowing roads. Over 2000km in five days, and I still want one. Driving that car on those roads was almost trancelike.
I’m still waiting for used pries to drop, they are holding their value pretty well here in Europe. So there is demand, but many don’t want to or can’t afford to buy new. I know price is a problem in Finland, before it was launched I was hoping it could meet the price of the then current Civic Type R at just under 30k€. It didn’t, it costs 50% more at 45k€ or so. Partly because the Civic is assembled in the UK. Subaru later slashed the price to 36k€ but it’s still too expensive.
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