By Jeff Glucker
I know that the answer to the above question is E39 BMW M5. That’s the greatest German sports sedan ever built. It lives up to the hype, and remains a case of Meet Your Heroes for me personally. Though my time in the car was brief (maybe 15 minutes), it provided everything I needed to know about the E39 M5.
There are certainly other strong candidates, of course. Our own Josh Ostrander recently acquired a B7 Audi RS4. Look for more on that car soon. The engine note from its 4.2-liter V8 remains one of the greatest audio hits in the Audi catalog.
Mercedes-Benz has plenty of winners as well. AMG-badged sedans are typically thrilling machines ready to fill the air with amazing noise and tire smoke when called upon to do so.
The answer here is still E39 M5. But I’m curious to hear your thoughts on the matter. Sound off below!
Kamil Kaluski
I liked my ‘86 Jetta GLI, which was all the German sports sedan I could afford in 1990.
Since Germans don’t know the difference between a sedan and a coupe…
https://rmsothebys-cache.azureedge.net/2/4/1/5/6/c/24156c38dc4e4072bc656f5217183a1c56b16014.jpg
In that case, I know the best German sedan/coupé I’ve ever driven:
http://www.murileemartin.com/UG/LAZ19/150-_MG_7618.jpg
Borgward would have had something though: The P100 with its I6 4-stroke(!) and 100, that’s One Hundred, HP. Alas, I wouldn’t assign it to be “best”, neither today nor in its time….
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/Borgward_P_100_%282014-08-31_6852%29.JPG/800px-Borgward_P_100_%282014-08-31_6852%29.JPG
But we do. So this cannot count.
Even though it’s hot buttered sex on four wheels.
Okay, fine, I’ll change my answer, too, even though I’ve never driven the official Sports version:
http://blog.consumerguide.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/07/1973-aa-752×1024.png
What, best sports sedan for driving off road?
Well, the Type 1 is the only German sedan I’ve ever driven, so it’s not like I’ve got a lot to go on for the sake of making comparisons.
You never drove a BMW Isetta?
I assume that’s a sedan since it’s not a convertible, station wagon, or coupe (since it’s not a shortened/cut version of a sedan).
Nope. No BMWs of any sort. I’ve helped push an Isetta on a couple of occasions, but that’s it.
German vehicles I’ve driven on the street: two Bugs, a Mk2 Golf, and a water-cooled Vanagon.
German vehicles I’ve driven on the track: a Porsche 924 with a VW/Volvo diesel engine and a Borgward Isabella Coupé.
Ah, that is a different question, the best German sedan I’ve driven is probably a MkV Jetta.
That would indeed be a different question. That’s why I specified the Sports Bug.
Lotus Omega.
https://www.classicdriver.com/sites/default/files/cars_images/dsc_0782_7.jpg
I’m not bitter that this hasn’t come up yet:
http://www.viathema.com/bitter/bitter-sc-4-door.jpg
(Honestly, I’d struggle to own any German “sports” car)
Some later Bitters were more Australian, ( fans of Chevrolet police cars may also recognise the base).
The Bitter Vero. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/08832cb0b9fd9b146e4a2cec5e02ce0ea7d2c8e11f9a1f40604cb824f9f78785.jpg
In Vero Vinitas, the Romans used to say.
The funny thing about that is that they are really going for “honesty” with that name, according to Wikipedia. That’s in a Holden that looks like an overblown Omega, carrying its steering wheel on the wrong side. But almost 600hp in 2007 is quite nice.
Since you are calling it an overblown Omega, the Romans might better have claimed “In Vero Vanitas”?
Disclaimer: I’m at the very edge of my latin here.
I have definitely found, in sampling our local vintages here in Hawkes Bay, NZ at one of the 300+ vineyards, that in vino veritas.
Slightly topical:
https://media.giphy.com/media/l46CwsAIlmnXlRC9O/giphy.gif
The other definitive M5, the E34. The last handmade M car. Perhaps still the best real world handling M car before they turned into bloated track cars though the E39 is on a similar level with it’s 6 speed manual. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b0d2aa071b95fd816e25ddb9333da8a7d3f090f3f46d5032d09a4de18705d050.jpg
And of course a starring role in Ronin, note how at the last minute it turns into a 535.
And if BMWs are a bit slow, you could take a truck load of cash and your Mercedes Benz W124 to Brabus and have the engine that ended up in the Pagani Zonda installed. The Sultan of Brunei funded 7.3 litre 48 valve non turbo V12 developed by AMG and further ‘breathed upon’. Restricted to 220mph by tyre limitations as were later EV12s, wagons were made as well, production over thirty examples. Or you could settle for one of AMG’s W124 V8s.
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5f82540b814e97c814792e82bb5150baf396ddbb483ff96a822fea7f34b92d38.jpg
I considered the W124 as well, though I was thinking more along the lines of the 500 E, which was more of a direct competitor of the M5. It was also sort of a “double German”, considering the role Porsche had in its development. The problem with all of these is the automatic gearbox, though, which in my opinion takes the “sport” out of “sport sedan”.
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/47eca942f0386b4a1c01bbd2f31210316d4e34a3588acc2e15682d795e70b73a.jpg As the owner of W, C and S 124s including a 300E-24 valve Sportline my preferences are firmly in that camp, but nothing matches the Getrag manual in the E34 and E39 combined with that steering. Mercedes use the same gearbox on their sixes but the installation isn’t as good for gearchange feel. The ultimate V8 W124 would be one of the later AMG E60s, a 500E with the V8 enlarged to 6 litres and the six speed manual, I understand three were made.
the automatic gearbox, though, which in my opinion takes the “sport” out of “sport sedan”
That is a pretty safe observation for that era MB
The Ronin car scene is classic, but it doesn’t say much for an E34 M5 when it can’t shake a Peugeot 406.
Hardly the worst case of movie speed adjustment for cars… (would make a good QOTD!)
Well it was a V6!
Hardly the worst case of movie speed adjustment for cars… (would make a good QOTD!)
to be fair, I think your speed through a place like Paris is more defined by what’s in your way than what car you’re in. any two reasonably nippy cars would probably traverse a dense, twisty city like that at a similar pace as long as they had competent drivers.
ordinarily I’d wave it all off as artistic license anyway, but the chases in Ronin distinguish themselves by being physically and mechanically plausible. drivers are human, cars get beat up, their limitations are recognized, and their value is clearly as a tool rather than a hero prop.
Yeah, I was being intentionally sarcastic. I realize it was a movie. And it was a 535i, not an M5 (for which my memory mistook it), making it a more plausible matchup. But still, RWD vs FWD? You can handbrake-turn all you want, but eventually that Peugeot is going to plow straight through a corner.
You’re right, though– Ronin gave us one of the most realistic car chases ever filmed. Even when you review it and look for inconsistencies, you find few. The attention to detail was quite good. In comparison, Fast and Furious scenes look like something from the Cartoon Network. Other than DeNiro looking like a petrified passenger rather than a determined driver, the scene is fantastic.
mmm, I dunno man. the conventional wisdom is that an RWD car is always faster, and the justification given is traction circle blah blah blah, but realistically for all but the best drivers I don’t think it makes that much difference. you’re braking in a straight line and cornering under maintenance throttle. I think width and wheelbase would have more impact on your ability to drive fast through a crowded city than drive wheels.
the one place I think an RWD car has a really sizeable inherent advantage is accelerating from a dead stop. all else being equal, and if the FWD car has a limited-slip diff, I think lap times / chase-through-Paris times wouldn’t differ by as much as modern car culture has conditioned us to imagine.
I should also add that I’ve never driven an FWD car with an LSD and more than like 250 hp. with an open diff it’s absolutely a lost cause even with just that much power. not sure how well an LSD helps when you’re above that range. so for 500 hp monsters, I’d probably agree that, all else being equal, a FWD car probably can’t keep up.
Audi S6. It is not the fastest, it is not an RS6, but shoving a V8 into that base car makes it both a sleeper and, opposed to the RS6, a bit more affordable. I didn’t say it was cheap or easy to maintain, but none of the German sedans since the 1990s ever was.
https://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/gallery/AUDIS6-1578_11.jpg
Mercedes Benz 300SEL 6.3, although perhaps it is more muscle car than sports sedan.
I’m going to go the exception route also:
https://bringatrailer.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/1968_Porsche_911_Trans_Am_Tony_Adamowicz_Race_Car_For_Sale_Front_1-470×318.jpg
911’s were able to compete as “sedans” in the original Trans Am series, I believe due to their interior volume (surely those prettier Alfa’s were comparably-sized inside).
Who, me, biased?!?!
Studebaker-Porsche Type 542 https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/12439801121975080229f8f61d2ca2b4d442425ba77f0b96556ec7a47a70a3e8.jpg
I like that one a lot. In fact, it carries some resemblance to one of my favourite sports sedans, period:
https://cdn.bringatrailer.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/1517613861f4a2051-cropped.jpg
I don’t know what that is, but I like it. Reminds me of a Facel Vega that’s had its lights turned sideways.
It’s one of Sir David Brown’s many gorgeous 4 door prototypes:
I see the resemblance, too! Facel Vega had some fantastic cars.
The only super-sedan endorsed by Bill S. Preston, Esq. and Ted Theodore Logan.
Plus, reading about Brock Yates lapping Road Atlanta in one, and fiddling with the sunroof and radio because it was just so competent is a rather striking endorsement.
https://d39a3h63xew422.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/20154006/mercedes-benz-450sel-6-9-was-all-about-engineering-1476934691465.jpg
https://www.billandted3.com/uploads/4/6/0/3/46037785/published/bill-and-ted-sequel-promo-2.jpg?1526236148
Plus Ronin.
I saw a particularly sad example of a 6.9 auctioned 20+ years ago, $1500. Probably had more value as parts.
I’m ashamed to say I forgot about that (even though I still have a copy of Ronin on DVD), but yes, another excellent point in the 6.9’s favour.
I dare say that however sad it was, we’re getting close to the point it’d be worth enough to be salvagable.
Eight years ago I visited a parking lot just outside of downtown Columbus where a small collection of interesting cars was sitting, including 4 6.9 sedans, if the badging was to be believed.
http://www.salguod.net/weblog/archive/2011/08/rare-cars-decaying-outside-in-downtown-columbus.shtml
A month later they were gone.
From what I can tell, the 6.9’s were the only W116’s to have hydropneumatic suspension, so given how slammed those two you spotted were, it’d make sense they were real 6.9’s on ill-maintained bags.
The E39 M5 is indeed the default answer, but if I were to have an M5 I would want an E34 or E28 instead. For me, it’s not really a BMW without an inline six.
While generally thought of as UK ford car, the MK2 Ford Escort was co-developed with Ford Germany and built there and other places inluding the UK, Ireland and Israel. making it the second best thing to come out of Nazareth.
http://craigbreen.com/images/news/full_Craig-sideways-on-the-famous-Knockalla-stage-today.jpg
While generally thought of as UK ford car, the MK2 Ford Escort was co-developed with Ford Germany and built there and other places inluding the UK, Ireland and Israel. making it the second best thing to come out of Nazareth.
http://craigbreen.com/images/news/full_Craig-sideways-on-the-famous-Knockalla-stage-today.jpg
Maybe not the best, but the most german to me is an Alpina. Just like an M, but less flashy, more discrete.
Also, according to wikipedia at its time the 502 was “Germany’s fastest passenger sedan in regular production”. So, 502 then.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/96/BMW_502_3200_Super_%281963%29_p3.JPG/1280px-BMW_502_3200_Super_%281963%29_p3.JPG
http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk/images/e28alp28.jpg
*less flashy, more discrete at the owner’s discretion. I would admittedly take the stripes though.
ha! you’re right, but I was thinking more along this lines
https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/pQPq0/s1/2017-bmw-alpina-b7-first-drive.jpg
That’s like saying a Cadillac is sporty because it was the fastest car in the US probably at the same time…
they even raced! 😉
https://stevemckelvie.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/cadillac-le-mans-coupe-1950-1.jpg
Yes and it did better than Le Monstre. Still not a very sporting car – note that Cunningham didn’t race it a second time.
My first reaction was also the E39 M5, but I will also nominate the Lotus Carlton, since, as shown here it was also available as the Opel Omega Lotus. With a twin turbo 6 in a near stock looking repmobile this was both the ultimate Q Ship and faster than contemporary Alpina BMWs
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/73/Lotus_Omega_Nr._460_%28schr%C3%A4g_vorne%29.JPG/1024px-Lotus_Omega_Nr._460_%28schr%C3%A4g_vorne%29.JPG
175 mph wasn’t it?
I think the UK model hit 180mph at Millbrook. Also the early ones are grey importable to he US under the 25 year rule
OK, cheaty Escort aside, an actual German choice. The poor mans 911/rich mans Imp.. NSU Prinz TT
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/NSU_Prinz_1000_2012-07-15_15-07-37.JPG
obrut?
https://cdn.bringatrailer.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/152364305738661a27Driving-e1523993021420-940×727.jpg