Honda recently received from the Japanese Patent Office a patent for an 11-speed, three clutch transmission. Now, we’re all pretty used to five and six speed automatics as the norm, and while they are not as common as their torque converter brethren, the CVT transmissions are becoming less the exception these days as well. Those infinitely variable gear-less gearboxes however tend to be less reliable, limited in the amount of power they can channel, and are as dull as dishwater to drive.
Give me good old gears. Sure, they’re not as variable as a CVT but with enough of them packed in there, you’re likely to find one to fit your mood. The thing of it is, the more you pack in, the tighter everything has to fit, the closer the tolerances need to be, and there’s lots more to go wrong. Honda says eleven isn’t too many, and today I want to know if you agree with the gear-obsessed Japanese company. What do you think, how many gears is too many gears when it comes to a transmission?
Image: yallamotor
Hooniverse Asks: How Many Gears is Too Many Gears?
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113 responses to “Hooniverse Asks: How Many Gears is Too Many Gears?”
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If I’m shifting myself — 7 is too many. I like having a solid left-middle-right gate on the top and bottom of the shift pattern. If I have to train my hand to discern between left-middle and right-middle, that’s too many possibilities.
If I’m not shifting, I don’t care. I’m leaving it up to a computer to decide, and the engineers who designed the algorithms, to determine how to manage all of them gears.-
7 might not be too many in an auto, but it is still unnecessary. Most people with automatics don’t have any idea how many gears their transmission has. 6 ratios is enough for most engines to operate in an efficient range at any speed without constantly hunting for the right gear. That’s all the driver will notice.
I think you’re right with 7 on the manual. I think your 7 is also the answer for an automatic. -
You can still have more manual gears than that.
I saw it in some movies.
http://a2.files.blazepress.com/image/upload/c_fit,cs_srgb,dpr_1.0,q_80,w_620/MTI4OTkxMjU2NjU0MTI5Nzk1.jpg-
‘R’ stands for ‘Race’, right?
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Rakieta.
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I can skip gears, right?
I dunno, 33?-
If I had a dollar for every time I 1,2,3,5’d my ’85 Mustang back in the day, I could afford to find it again and have it restored.
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Hell… I’m going 1-4 all the time.
Thanks Ford’s floppy trans mounts. -
I do a 1-2-5 in the Mazda3 and the 318ti all the time. If I’m going to accel hard, with a decently high redline (6500 in both cases, I believe) by the time I max out second, I’m going about as fast as I want anyway.
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Does anyone remember driving a PowerGlide equipped car of the 60’s? 2 speeds….
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I had a car that used to eat up the hitch pins that held the shifter linkages together. I’m not sure why I didn’t think to carry spares with me. Generally, they would fail on my way to class while I was short on time.
If the 1-2 linkage failed, I would use 3-4 until the afternoon, when I had time to fix it. If it was 3-4 that failed, I would pull over to a nearby parking lot, stop the engine, and slide under the car to put the transmission in 4th gear. I had a one-speed for the rest of the commute!-
Read about a guy whose transmission jammed in a Volvo 240 in Northern Norway. He was in fifth,and he drove for eight hours in just that gear to get home. Took some planning not to stop, I guess..
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I had a clutch issue in my ute years ago and drove home using just 4th gear once it was rolling, including around 2m diameter roundabouts with about 400 rpm on the clock. Luckily there weren’t any traffic light intersections on my route then!
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My first car was a ’67 Chevelle. Its 2 speeds worked just fine for me then.
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I had a ’72 with the 250 inline six and the 2-speed powerglide. Didn’t realize that was a crappy thing to have until much later.
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Ford-a-matic and the bands slipped. WHat a joyful car that was. I got a Chevy with the lovely “3 on the tree”
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Honda’s “Hondamatic” bikes had a hydraulic torque converter joined to a two-speed manual gearbox. You could leave it in second gear (“Drive” initially) all the time, or shift into first (“Low”) for quicker takeoff from a standstill.
https://2yrh403fk8vd1hz9ro2n46dd-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/2014-cm400a-hondamatic-classic-motorcycle-profile-2.jpg-
“…matic”-naming conventions seem to have gone out of style?
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Well… Mercedes has the “4Matic”….
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Not sure if these are currently used:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manumatic
– Mazda: ActiveMatic, SportMatic (North America)
– Honda: MultiMatic
– Kia: Sportmatic
– Hyundai: HIVEC H-Matic-
That’s amazing – I am really not familiar with most of these fantasmatic terms.
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I’ve driven my dad’s ’68 Olds Cutlass S convertible with the [not a PowerGlide!!] 2-speed Super Turbine 300. For what it is, it works fine.
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9 gears is one too many; just ask Chrysler.
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A friend has a new Cherokee. In six months of driving he doesn’t think it’s ever used the top gear.
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The rental 200 we had in Hawaii managed to get into 8th one time, and there was a LOT of flat, straight road cruising at 55-60 MPH.
Forget 9th. I figure 8th and 9th are “Texas” overdrives.-
We have a 100km/h (62mph) open road speed limit. I doubt his Cherokee has gone above 7th.
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On the other hand I drove a VW Golf with the 7 speed DSG, and it would engage 7th gear at 11-1200 rpm at under 35 mph! This was with the twin-charged engine, 1.2L from memory?
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It’s funny because the question implies that automatic transmissions have gears. We all know that there’s nothing inside them but computers, black magic, and unicorn tears.
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So this is how I envision a CVT works. That each person is a fake gear in a CVT.
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I’ve never done acid, but that video probably accurately recreates the feeling of one of Hunter S. Thompsons rougher days…
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Oh is that your first exposure to Too Many Cooks? That was run late one night without being on the schedule and kind of became a Youtube thing. If you made it to the end then I congratulate you. It kind of rewards you for it in weird ways.
It’s a parody of the 80s and 90’s shows that way too many characters. Which is kind of how I feel about 8 speed, 9 speed, and CVT’s.-
Yep, first exposure, kinda skimmed though it but it but that needs a health warning… Irish late TV had its odd moments (The End and the legendary “No Disco), but was usually a bit more genteel that that headmelter.. I mean as a kid in the 80s, the occasionally chaotically run state broadcaster used to end up with gaps in its schedule which it would fill by showing the full length version of Kraftwerks Autobahn, which blew my tiny mind. This was as much of a trip, but a bad one.
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Oh ok that make sense. Look up Adult Swim on Cartoon Network sometime.
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Thanks – I’ve got that song in my head now.
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Depends what you’re driving, big ol saloon/SUV, especially with a turbodiesel with a paper thin power band, then eleventy squillion gears is great, especially if it’s a clever auto that you can let do its thing rather hitting paddles more often than a pinball player.
Something small and light? (say on the GT86/Miata/Lotus end of the scale) Then it’s not so much the number of gears, but the weight of the box that becomes important, so that points towards less complexity, a 5-6 speed manual is ideal.
On the other hand if you want to really save weight but have loads of power, then Christian Koenigsegg with the One:1 and Adrian Newey with his Aston Martin Redbull project would argue that a multiple speed “gearbox” in the conventional sense is just unnecessary weight. -
If it costs more than $5000 or can’t hold up to 800 lb-ft of torque, it has too many gears.
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What’s beyond infinity?
http://i.makeagif.com/media/7-17-2015/GHgg9_.gif-
My retirement date. My retirement date is beyond infinity…. That’s what’s beyond infinity…
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That right next to the Alfa logo…unrelated?
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A couple more Pixar sequels?
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Cantor would probably argue that a CVT’s adjustability is not infinite. The belt most likely interacts with the cones in descrete modes at the molecular level. Thus, while the number of actual effective ratios would be astronomically high and effectively impossible to calculate accurately, it would not be correct to think the set of ratios could be legitimately interpolated to infinity.
Which is why Cantor was widely thought of as a pedantic prick and never invited over for beers in the garage.-
Well except when they wanted to borrow his recovery truck..
http://www.belltruckservices.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/A15-BTS.jpg -
Zeno would also have problems with CVT’s. You can’t actually achieve the design top gear because you can only go halfway to top gear, and then half of the remainder etc. I’m sure his head would explode over the concept of stopping a car with anti-lock brakes.
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Tuesday answer: All the gears, all of the time….
http://i48.tinypic.com/2i2068l.jpg-
On Tuesday, Mana GT is always the correct answer.
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Double secret infinity.
http://www.dafownersclub.co.uk/uploads/1/0/9/5/10958195/8626753_orig.jpg-
Hey, Professor, there’s something I’ve always wondered about DAF transmissions: is the input shaft to the CVTs a true differential, or just a right-angle bevel drive? It would seem to me there’d be little need for the two drive shafts to vary in relative speed, and perhaps would be disadvantageous.
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My understanding is that it’s simply a bevel drive, which means that the vehicle can still be operated “normally” even with one belt missing. I’ll find out fairly soon, though, as that component is what broke on mine. Turning the input shaft now produces no further motion, just a disheartening grinding noise.
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That would make the most sense because the transmissions are behind the “diff” which, because of the transmissions’ functional properties in this case would take up the difference.
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First one, then the other. They added a differential at some point (DAF 55?), since the improved versions had less slip, so the system would end up with similar problems like a conventional drivetrain in narrow/slow turns.
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Interesting!
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I’m sure mine will prove to be whatever is the most delicate, complicated, and expensive version to repair.
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Read about this at the Atomic Toasters
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Those 8 speed transmissions that hunt for gears drive me nuts.
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Hunting for gears must be harder than bow hunting.
http://tanshanomi.com/temp/bow-hunting.jpg
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Coulthard said that the most remarkable feature of the CVT is the engine braking. I didn’t hear that about the 8-gear boxes yet.
Personally, it happens that I forget the sixth gear in rentals, so five for my kind of driving.-
In my experience the most remarkable feature of the CVT is not the engine braking but the transmission breaking.
https://c6.staticflickr.com/9/8278/29015871365_d25b08df64.jpg-
Oh, that’s too common a sight, they all break all the time. Here, they*ll introduce CVT deposits soon, to make sure you (or someone) returns the car, and doesn’t just leave it wherever they failed.They have entire fjords filled with shredded CVTs…
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You know, as far as that goes Puget Sound really is just a collection of fjords.
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We have both Fjords and Djodges filled with shredded CVTs. Probably some Cjhevys, too,
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-d_PqARlYRx4/UQ1OvQDh6SI/AAAAAAAABw0/2BUNUFMa7Uo/s320/IMG_0751.JPG-
I got a deposit return of about USD400 for my Fjocus – not kidding.
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Now you’re just trying to embarrass that little yellow Volvo in front of its pals. I know you’re not an md in pedagogy, but that might come back to haunt you.
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I prefer to view it as a warning and a lesson for those three Fords.
Besides, I don’t have an M.D. in anything; those are just my initials. I’ve got a Ph.D., which means I don’t have to take responsibility for any potential consequences of my actions. I think. Or at least hope.
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I only need one, but it better be the right one.
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I know some guys who’d agree with you.
http://www.draglist.com/artman2/uploads/2/Top_Fuel_Winner.jpg
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Er, let me see… That’s two, four, six, seven — then across to, er… ah! There’s eight. Now nine? Where’s nine?
http://i62.tinypic.com/6ihac7.jpg-
Right in the middle, there*s N for nine?
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You misspelled nein.
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This version was an option on VW Transporters:
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Nah, that’s only how you remember the 60’s
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I’m pretty sure this was an inspiration for certain tractor makers that shall not be named, but which paint their machines green with yellow wheels and persisted far too long with silly transverse 2-cylinder engines…
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My dad was actually just telling me about funky shift patterns on some of the green and yellow tractors…
http://www.mytractorforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=214733&d=1338070217
(That’s supposed to be a picture. Just click the link to see it.)Tractor transmission wise, I’m a big fan of the one in our red and black and siver one.
18 gears, one after another, making it nice and easy to find the one you need.
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I always liked that version of the 18-speed. (My dad & grandpa had a 7140, 7250, 2x 7120’s & 2x 7220’s at varying points in time, usually one bigger & two smaller, but now just an MX220 and one of the 7220’s in that size of tractor.) The subsequent setup with the shift-by-magic-pixies thumbswitch in the throttle may do better by the numbers but it’s not as satisfying as pounding through the detents on the mechanical lever.*
*phrasing-
Wow, that’s quite a few Magnums!
Ours is a 7110 that my dad bought brand-new. It’s not our newest tractor, but it’s definitely my favourite to drive.
I totally agree about the transmissions though. Our neighbour has decently new green and yellow one, and a push button system just doesn’t deliver the same kind of satisfaction.
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Half the number of cupholders plus seven. Wait, that’s not right.
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I was always taught that it was seven minus half the number of cupholders, but that’s for a six-volt system. I’m not sure how to convert that to 12V.
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2x#ch-2d6?
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That dice roll got me a negative number. I guess that means I’m ditched?
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Yes, that’s a CVT. (A trick in the rulebook, since nobody offered oo cupholders – yet)
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Salesman: “Let me help you find the right model for you. What are you looking for in a new car?”
“An infinite number of cupholders.”
Salesman:
https://media.giphy.com/media/SEp6Zq6ZkzUNW/giphy.gif -
You only need one cupholder. As long as it can handle a child size soda.
https://media.giphy.com/media/5HTvtd1IkoOmA/giphy.gif -
I…. I kind of, I kind of love you a little bit for this.
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I thought it was twice the number of girls as there are cups …dangit, that’s wrong too.
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Twice the number of girls is ALWAYS right!
In my case that’s often still zero.
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wow… truly amazing
The high final drive and strangely chosen ratios of the manual in my Rover give it the feeling of a 12 speed gearbox with only five working gears.
It somewhat depends on application. I have a copy of Performance Car from 1987 with an article advocating more gear rations because the more ratios available, the better the chances of having the engine running at optimum revs. The author sited the amazingly complex gearbox used on the Tiger tank and also advocated computer controlled shifting to avoid having to keep track of all those ratios.
While the gear ratio arms race in automatics may create some sub-optimal implementations they concept is not wrong. There is a reason why 18 wheelers have complex transmission setups with 10-20 speeds, and touring bicycles have 30 speeds (although not all are usable)
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This is the answer I was looking for, sort of. For what’s the point with an 11-speed? Gas savings? Higher reliability vs a CVT? Certainly not weight savings? I’d love a sixth gear in my Honda to get the revs down even at 90 kph, but if I look at fuel consumption, there’s really no reason to complain anyway. The efficiency of things-as-they-are seems just fine.
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Fuel economy, reliability and power handling capacity vs. CVT.
Quoted from myself in another comment, because I’m lazy:
“The goal of CVT transmissions is to reduce fuel consumption by keeping the engine at maximum torque output for as long as possible before the transmission runs out of ratios then RPMs rise. This transmission is designed with the same goals in mind…”-
Wouldn’t that just be a matter of getting used to six gears? I had a ’71 Volvo 145 with its hand brake on the left, between door and seat. Getting used to the normal position in bw both front seats took a while after having sold the Volvo, but it eventually worked. Also, when my wife bought the first slushbox for us to own ever, I did a fair share of emergency braking coming into road crossings etc when I tried to push in the clutch that wasn’t there with my left foot…embarrassing, but unlearned now.
The Honda is a 2002 Honda Stream. I guess you can always get more efficiency out of an engine by adding more gears. My point was more that the marginal improvement for every gear added must be reduced significantly after a while, where you’d really need to weigh it against the aded complexity and service need, as well as longevity. I feel even my short fifth gear is “efficient” enough, as I don’t see this car using so much less fuel with more gears either.-
Yes and no? Sure, you have to come to terms with the thing, but it’s not quite as straight forward as it being just slightly different like your hand brake location. Well, it is but it isn’t? We’re just tacking another gear on the end, that’s not so hard to get used to, you can always just row another gear over. But keeping mental track of where you are in the process while getting cues from your ears that don’t seem to line up with where you think you are is harder.
Besides economy, the emissions system efficiency also plays into it. Besides getting peak economy at peak torque, I’m sure there’s something at peak torque that makes it desirable for emissions as well. Perhaps manifold pressures are ideal or the engine is less stressed in some way, or exhaust gasses are hotter. -
Also from a drivability point of view Japanese manufacturers won’t gear their cars (and trucks) so you have to change down any time the road is not flat (when fully loaded), at the expense of revving a bit higher
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ugh i experience this daily. i typically drive a car with a six-speed, but my other car has a five-speed, and when i’m in fifth i always have that nagging feeling that i should change up.
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I had a 91 Civic with a 4spd and stopped in to test drive the Dodge Dart Turbo when it was new. Talk about looking like an idiot.
The other half drives a 5spd 5cyl Rabbit, so we go through this as well.
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Feels like I’m shifting more with the 6 speed. Car makes more power which makes me want longer gears with a 5 speed. I had to relearn a shift points.
But it’s also aggravated by 3.73 gears in the 6 speed vs 3.55 in the 5 speed. Acceleration is bangbangbang – exceeding speed limit.
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I’ve had my 6spd since February and I’m just now feeling comfortable with it. Torque curves probably have more to do with the performance difference than the final drive. I put an engine from a 5spd car into a 4spd car and that bugger wouldn’t get out of it’s own way, despite having more than 20HP more than the old one. The reason was the base model engine had a torque curve that went up steep and sat pretty level over the RPM range, while the more powerful engine had a much more gradual rise and a defined peak. Had I put the 5spd in with it, the car would have been a handful, but instead it dogged on every shift which led to me running it nearly to red-line when anything had to happen fast. This ties in pretty well with my comment above about torque and fuel economy.
8’s been great in the new Challenger. It makes me wish the Dakota had 2 more ratios (the 545RFE has 5 nominal speeds, but 6 ratios; 2-prime was judged to be too close to 2 for use in the usual sequence, but useful as a passing kickdown gear.)
As for sticks, 5 is nice and 6 is plenty IMO. If I was staying in city limits I could go weeks without shifting to 6th in my old Challenger.
The goal of CVT transmissions is to reduce fuel consumption by keeping the engine at maximum torque output for as long as possible before the transmission runs out of ratios then RPMs rise. This transmission is designed with the same goals in mind, but as the number of gears goes up, their size eventually must come down for a given form factor — usually determined by length for FWD cars. Hondas aren’t exactly known for outrageous amounts of torque in their smaller engines, but survival rates will likely suffer behind larger engines. Honda’s history with automatic transmissions and the fact that it has hydraulic circuits leads me to believe that they will ultimately be the Achilles heel of the transmission.
I really think that 6 speed auto is the sweet spot for your typical sedan/CUV/SUV that is doing your daily commute. (I am happy that the new Ridgeline has 6 speed rather than the all too common zf9 speed) That being said, I have heard (not personally driven)that the ZF 8speed is an impressive transmission. I do feel that the ZF 9 speed (mush maligned in current FCA models) seems to suffer from poor programming rather that exploding into bits from poor components.
Some people still think…
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/76/f5/d9/76f5d9ec7c0403e1fbf3b66cc16cff77.jpg
As far as automated transmissions, give me a good power split device.
All of the flexibility of a CVT, none of the wear items, and you also get a hybrid system for free.
Granted, for the Lexus GS 450h/LS 600h, Toyota has a 2-speed planetary reduction box on the end of a PSD, and for the LC 500h, they have a 4-speed planetary reduction box…
Valtra T234 is with systematic..
I totally agree about the transmissions though. Our neighbour has decently new green and yellow one, and a push button system just doesn’t deliver the same kind of satisfaction. https://tecnotrucchi.com/ilgeniodellostreaming/
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Well, it is but it isn’t? We’re just tacking another gear on the end, that’s not so hard to get used to, you can always just row another gear over. https://azpayslips.co.uk/icity-login/
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More gears usually means more performance and control, but at some point, the benefits start to diminish. While six or seven speeds in a manual transmission has become the norm for performance vehicles, some cars are now pushing past 10 or even 12 gears.
On one hand, more gears allow the engine to stay within its optimal power band for longer, improving acceleration and fuel economy. Transmissions with many gears also have wider gear ratios, so each individual gear provides a noticeable difference in engine speed. This gives the driver more precise control over the vehicle’s speed and acceleration.
The number of gears in a vehicle is not necessarily a matter of “too many” or “too few”, but rather what is most efficient and suitable for the vehicle’s intended use.
For regular passenger cars, most automatic transmissions have between six and ten gears, while manual transmissions typically have between five and six. These numbers provide a good balance between performance, fuel efficiency, and drivability.
For high-performance vehicles, more gears can allow the engine to stay in its optimal power band, improving acceleration and speed. However, too many gears can lead to frequent shifting, which can be disruptive and decrease overall performance.
For off-road vehicles like the Nissan Patrol NISMO, the number of gears can affect the vehicle’s ability to navigate different terrains. The Nissan Patrol NISMO, for example, features a 7-speed automatic transmission, which provides a good balance between performance and control.
The “right” number of gears depends on the vehicle’s design, intended use, and the balance between performance and fuel efficiency.
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